Cars Overboard! The City of Bangor Sinks, 200 Chryslers Survive

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 11/01/2014 at 09:45 • Filed to: None

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In the winter of 1926, 29 men struggled to survive a blizzard and the near-sinking of their ship, the City of Bangor , in the harsh waters of Lake Superior. While their story of survival is remarkable, even more so is the cargo they carried and how it survived: 200 1926 Chrysler automobiles, most of which were salvaged and made an arduous journey back to civilization.

The City of Bangor was a 444-foot long steamer headed for Duluth with a cargo of Chrysler automobiles when it got caught in a fierce snowstorm not far from Eagle River on the night of November 30. Lake Superior is famous for its rough weather, particularly for how fast it can sneak up on boats, and the captain of the Bangor decided he would backtrack and hide on the "lee side" of the peninsula. He never made it. Just outside of Copper Harbor, not far from the point of the peninsula, the ship's steering failed and soon the ship was at the mercy of the seas. Shortly after, she was smashed into the rocks not far from shore. The waves continued pounding the vessel and soon water was pouring through the hull. The engines were swamped and the ship was doomed. A dozen or more cars which had been on the deck were washed overboard. The captain decided to abandon the ship and told his crew of 28 to head to shore.

It was pitch dark and there was little to shelter the men – who were not dressed for a northern Michigan winter – from the elements. They thought they might be able to hike to Copper Harbor in the morning. Struggling against snow which was 4 feet deep – but had drifted to 14 feet in places – the men quickly gave up on going anywhere and hunkered down where they were. They began considering life's deeper questions. Then, a miracle. Another ship had been stricken by the storm and had managed to get ashore and call for help not far from the Bangor ; the Coast Guard sent help and on their way back, the Guard saw the Bangor 's crew on shore, in rough shape. Help was sent and the crew was picked up and brought to the hospital in Calumet. Many of the men were stricken with frostbite but they would survive.

But what of the cars? It was determined that they would be saved. Operations commenced once the ice had frozen between the ship and shore. A ramp of snow and ice was built to allow the cars to be driven off the ship. According to the newspaper, "Bitter cold caused a 10 foot layer of ice to en-sheath the decks. [] It was necessary to actually hew the cars out of solid ice." Some thought had been given to plowing a road through the woods but the effort would have been monumental and it might not have even worked. Instead, the cars were simply driven carefully along the shoreline to Copper Harbor. The ones which had been washed off the deck could not be saved but were said to have washed ashore in the spring.

The story of the remarkable rescue of the men and the cars made headlines around the country. The Milwaukee Journal told of how "giant rotary plows progress a mile a day in opening the roads from here [Calumet] to Copper Harbor to salvage 200 shipwrecked automobiles."

The 200 cars were marshaled in Copper Harbor and then driven to Calumet when the road was open. There, they were shipped back to Detroit by rail. Eventually, the cars were reconditioned and then sold. The City of Bangor was partially scrapped in 1929 and the bulk of it was removed in 1944 in an effort to make use of the iron.

We do not know if the future owners of the Chryslers were told of the ordeals the cars had gone through to find their way to the dealer. Stories abound in the Copper Country that not all of the cars from the Bangor left the area.Of course it is possible that some of the cars which were sold after being reconditioned found their way to northern Michigan but the legends always hinted that some of the locals had just "found" cars on the shore and taken them home without bothering to see who they might belong to. "A 1926 Chrysler just sitting on the shore! Now how did you get here? Let's take you home and get you into a nice warm garage."

According to the caption on the back of this photograph (Courtesy of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) "Paddy Slusarzyk of the Calumet District stands beside his famed Chrysler which goes back to the beaching of the City of Bangor in a Lake Superior storm on November 30, 1926. The car is now 45 years of age. Paddy so values the car that he says he even now would not take $1,000 for it despite its age. He runs it every day in the summer but in winter he merely turns the engine over to keep it 'easy'." No mention of whether he bought it or "found" it. But if it did really come from the City of Bangor , its story was worth remembering.

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Jesse Shaffer > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 11:13

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From everything that Walter Chrysler had seen from his time as President of Buick after Billy Durant's wild ride in and out of GM in the volatile horseless carriage industry - I'd be willing to bet that the new owners of these cars had no idea what they went through.

graham > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 11:17

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Great story and one I had not read before!

BaconSandwich is tasty. > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 11:34

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Interesting read. I finished reading a book about shipwrecks on the great lakes not too long ago. It's amazing how many ships have sunk/caught fire/crashed like that.

Tohru > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 11:56

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Awesome, another Steve Lehto article.

You'd never see this kind of thing happening nowadays. Due to the liability issues involved (no offense), if something like this happened today the cars would be scrapped.

SteveLehto > BaconSandwich is tasty. 11/01/2014 at 11:58

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Yes. This one is very well-known in that area especially because of the story about the cars (and how everyone knew someone who supposedly had one they "found.")

SteveLehto > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 12:00

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I'm not so sure about that. I was going to put something in the piece about how nothing has changed. Those cars would probably all be sold without anyone blinking an eye. If they got caught they'd say, "They had not been titled yet and are, therefore, still brand new."

Thanks for the note.

Tohru > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 12:42

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Actually, we have precedent for this.

The MV Cougar Ace, a roll-on roll-off cargo vessel, suffered a loss of stability incident near the Aleutian Islands in July 2006, leaving the boat laying at a 60 degree angle from vertical. Inside of it was 4,703 Mazdas (2804 Mazda3's, 1329 CX-7's, 295 Miatas, 214 RX-8's, 56 Mazda5's and 5 Mazdaspeed6's).

(The MV Cougar Ace, 3 weeks after the incident.)

During the recovery effort, it was noted that 41 vehicles had broken free or shifted, but the majority of the load was still in place and undamaged. The deck showed signs that vehicles had been leaking fluids from the angle they were at.

The vessel was finally righted on August 16th, 2006 and taken under tow to the Port of Portland, OR, arriving on September 12th. On Sept. 11th, Mazda announced that none of the vehicles would be sold new, and posted a list of the affected VIN numbers on their websites.

Over the next couple months, requests poured into Mazda regarding the Cougar Ace cars. High schools wanted to buy them for auto shop classes. Hollywood wanted them for stunt cars. Regular people wanted cheap cars bought as-is. Mazda turned them all down for two reasons:
1) The liability if there was a component failure due to the Cougar Ace incident and extended salt air exposure, and
2) Mazda was concerned these vehicles would be sold overseas as new, something that happened with some flood-damaged "Katrina cars".

On December 15th, Mazda announced all the cars would be crushed. It took over a year for Mazda to come up with a plan to crush the $100 million in cars that satisfied Mazda, the insurance companies, and the city of Portland. The final plan had the crushing done at the Port of Portland by a contracted company under heavy Mazda supervision. The insurance company that paid out on the claim stipulated that no parts from the vehicles could be resold. So, wheels were cut, airbags force-deployed, tires had holes punched in them, batteries and CD players were smashed.

The Mazdas would be driven off the freighter to the first station, where the bags were force-deployed with a Mazda-designed detonator that set all of them off at once. Then, forklifted to station 2 to be prepped for crushing (fluids drained; battery, gas tank, tires, and catalytic converter removed). The vehicle was then crushed, and the crushed body dropped into a metal grinder that spit out ashtray-sized chunks of Mazda.

The final Cougar Ace Mazda was crushed on May 6, 2008.

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Cougar…

http://www.alaskareport.com/coastguard1001…

http://jalopnik.com/199992/mazda-s…

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/…

SteveLehto > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 12:50

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Wow. But that's Mazda. I still think Chrysler would have re-sold the cars.

Tohru > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 12:57

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The two press releases quoted at the bottom of the article (dead links now) are from http://media.ford.com/mazda - Mazda USA is still a part of Ford Motor Company.

While I appreciate the dig at Chrysler (I owned a '94 Shadow ES and it was the biggest piece of junk ever), it's not like Ford doesn't have experience selling questionable vehicles to the public (*cough* Pinto, Firestone-equipped Explorer *cough cough*).

Then again, after the big lawsuits from those two (Explorer specifically), maybe they felt they didn't want to risk it this time.

Maybe if they were Fords instead of Mazdas, they'd have done it. Mazda has more of a premium name, and they said they didn't want to risk hurting their reputation.

Sharaz Jek > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:03

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Awesome story. Thanks for the post; I had never heard about this before.

Am I the only one who had "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" running through his or her head while reading?

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:04

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so are any of the ones that went overboard still underwater? Because I might have to purchase some scuba gear, and some salvaging equipment...

SteveLehto > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 13:05

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I am speaking more in terms of generalities. All of the car companies buy back lemons (from clients of attorneys like me) and re-sell them. Many people assume those cars are "crushed" or some such. I suspect what happened in your case is that many of the cars were indeed damaged (tipping a car far enough so fluids leak out) or were at least questionable. If they had sold the "good" ones, they would have been facing suits for years for every car on the road which COULD have been on that ship.

SteveLehto > Sharaz Jek 11/01/2014 at 13:06

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Hard to say; it was running through my head when I wrote it.

SteveLehto > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion 11/01/2014 at 13:07

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I don't think so. The site is now a popular scuba diving site (it's very close to shore and not all that deep) and I have never heard of cars still being there.

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:09

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Disappointed...

McPherson > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:12

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Alternate headline:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

pfftballer > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:23

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You'd be wrong about that. Did you not read about the Cougar Ace ?

SteveLehto > pfftballer 11/01/2014 at 13:26

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Yes. And that is not how all car companies behave all the time. So, I'd not be wrong "about that."

As I mentioned above: "I am speaking more in terms of generalities. All of the car companies buy back lemons (from clients of attorneys like me) and re-sell them. Many people assume those cars are "crushed" or some such. I suspect what happened in your case is that many of the cars were indeed damaged (tipping a car far enough so fluids leak out) or were at least questionable. If they had sold the "good" ones, they would have been facing suits for years for every car on the road which COULD have been on that ship."

Be that as it may, the Bangor Chryslers were simply on a ship that ran aground. Many of them probably suffered NO damage. In fact, since many of them were driven to Calumet from Copper Harbor (And got there by driving from the ship!) one could argue that the 200 suffered minimal damage.

You think Chrysler would scrap 200 perfectly good cars because the ship they were on ran aground?

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:51

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I can see the Craigslist add "ran when parked, slight water damage, great for winter."

SteveLehto > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 11/01/2014 at 13:54

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You're doing it wrong. "Chrysler. Stored indoors. Shipped whenever taken more than 100 miles from home."

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:56

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Touché

Mathos101 > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 13:56

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When my FoST was in the shop, the dealer gave me a Edge that had been stolen off another lot while brand new, recovered, repaired (to the tune of $10k), and was being sold. The hilarious thing about the whole thing was that night I got in it to go to dinner and there were no headlights. No lamps and no sockets. I took it back the next morning and was like " You know how I know you guys never drove this at night?". If they'll fix and try to resell theft recovery vehicles I have no doubt they would ship-wrecked cars if they were in good enough shape. Cougar Ace not withstanding.

SteveLehto > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 11/01/2014 at 13:58

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But we do have 200 to sell, so each one needs its own unique ad . . . .

SteveLehto > Mathos101 11/01/2014 at 13:59

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Frankly, I'd feel better about the world if they had sold the Mazdas and scrapped the Cougar Ace. Damn boat can't float straight.

Thanks for the note.

special_k_side > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 14:04

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The headline caught my attention, the story, although great, would have been better if it was

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

SteveLehto > special_k_side 11/01/2014 at 14:07

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True. And to make matters worse for me, Kinja will not allow us to italicize within the headline (or if it does, I have no idea how to) so I knew that "City of Bangor" would not read as a ship name. That's why I put the word "Sinks" where I did. I wanted a headline that kind of hinted it was a ship and not the city.

Someone else pointed out it could have been "Chrysler 200s" as well. A lot of potential with this one.

Thanks for the note.

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 14:12

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Today I can't imagine any manufacturer selling the cars.
Would there be any contract language where a manufacturer could protect itself should something go wrong? And it's not so much the first buyer, but the second or third owner. How is the knowledge of what the car's history is get passed down? I suppose a big stamping of in the firewall, but a little body filler and paint and that goes away. Sure maybe carfax... but does everyone use it? No.

I can imagine something fails, someone gets hurt, say the fourth owner. He was never told of the car's history. He sues, the jury decides to 'do the right thing' and has the manufacturer pay because it has the money while the owner who broke the chain of knowledge doesn't. Worse yet, it's some failure due to age and lack of care or just bad luck rather than anything that happened due to the leaning ship.

SteveLehto > Jimmy Joe Meeker 11/01/2014 at 14:19

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You mean with the Mazdas or the Chryslers? With the Mazdas, they had to do something drastic. They could have branded the titles but you never know if the brand follows it when it gets retitled in another state.

ERN > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 14:20

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Not to mention the Continental-equipped Exploders, Expeditions, etc., and all the other brand of tires-equipped Fords (and other vehicles) that continued to crash at the same and greater rates after the billions of dollars were paid to law firms after the settlement....once they got their moula, the "crisis" completely disappeared!

And I guarantee you they continue to crash at the same rate today, but the settlement is past, so they don't call the "news" stations anymore, to try to get publicity.....

special_k_side > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 14:32

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Hey, still a great article! Still a confusing (Yet good) Headline for the post. Nice historical post! Great job for '26 saving those cars, and seamen!

472CID > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 14:41

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A first glance I thought the headline was about Bangor Maine (or India) sinking but a Chrysler 200 survived.

Fun fact, this happened near a missile test site, today there's a memorial off of an off road trail.

Tohru > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 14:48

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You raise valid points. I've never held a car at a 60 degree angle for a month, so I have no idea what that does to a car. Presumably Mazda doesn't know either. Instead of having each one of the ~4700 cars inspected at a dealer and certified okay for the road, it was most likely logistically easier to scrap them.

Personally, I think if the City of Bangor incident happened today, the vehicles would have been scrapped. The insurance companies would get involved right away and everything would go to hell in a handbasket.

Tohru > Sharaz Jek 11/01/2014 at 14:52

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The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they called "Gitche Gumee."
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
when the skies of November turn gloomy.

SteveLehto > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 15:16

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The key here though (And we don't know the answer to this definitively) BUT the cars on the Bangor appear to have been undamaged. IF they were undamaged, Chrysler would not scrap them. If they would, following that through to its logical conclusion, any time there was an accident involved a train carrying cars or an accident involving a ship carrying cars, they would destroy all the cars (and the rest of the cargo). Why destroy perfectly good cars? The Mazdas were an unknown (and some of them were admittedly damaged). If that ship had been righted and none of the cars were damaged it would have been a whole different ballgame. Among other things, the insurance company wouldn't have paid a claim on them (other than for the delayed shipment). And if they HAD, they would have taken possession of them and sold them (which they would be entitled to do) and they would have gotten into the stream of commerce that way.

Again, keep in mind that EVERY SINGLE car maker out there buys back lemons every day and re-sells them. Which would you rather have: A car that was on a ship that ran aground but was undamaged or a car that had been bought back because a court deemed it to be a lemon? I would much rather have the car from the ship any day of the week.

Chaos-cascade > Sharaz Jek 11/01/2014 at 15:21

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Coming up on the anniversary of it's sinking.

KilgoreTrout53 > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 15:29

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The original "Scratch and Dent" sale?

Tohru > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 15:36

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I'm actually not trying to argue car condition. I will concede that point to you.

If a ship with 200 Chryslers 200's ran around in Lake Superior today, with the lower section filling with water, Chrysler probably wouldn't take the risk of reconditioning or reinspecting them. The cars would most likely be just fine, but what's 200 cars to Chrysler today compared to 90+ years ago? Plus, the average person (not a car person like us, just a regular person) would look at it and go "It's been in a shipping accident, it can't be safe."

As a whole, we are a lot more of a "throw it away" culture than we were back then. I'm reminded of the Ford Transit Connect. To avoid the Chicken Tax, all of them are shipped over with back glass and back seats. When they get over here, the ones that are to be cargo Connects get the back seats and back glass removed. Instead of shipping back those seats and glass (after all, the boat has to go back to Europe to get the next load of cars), they recycle them because it's easier to make new ones in Europe than to reuse the ones they already made.

That's why I'd say Chrysler would scrap the cars if it happened today. Because it's easier to throw the brand new cars away and make another batch. This is simply my opinion, is all.

I'd take the car off the boat over a known lemon, but knowing my luck the car that was on the ship would also be a lemon. I've bought two vehicles from dealerships: a '99 S-10 and a '98 Ninja 250. Both had to go back for issues that were there when I bought it: the S-10 for a cracked exhaust manifold and the Ninja for bent front forks. Both times it was taken care of for free, thankfully. Still, my bad luck.

Chaparral2F > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 15:41

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What an amazing story. Anyone who remembers the Edmund Fitzgerald knows of the perils of Lake Superior in late fall or early spring. This story almost reminds me of the WW2 airplanes frozen in time in Greenland. Steve, I beg you. Please compile all these stories into a book. PLEASE!

Chaparral2F > Chaparral2F 11/01/2014 at 15:42

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And Steve, could I get a permanent removal of the "pending approval"?

SteveLehto > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 15:44

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Valid points, all. I personally think that all future buyers of repurchased lemons should know what they are getting. The amazing thing (and I might do a story on this one day) is I have represented the same CAR twice. Brand new - lemon - used - dealership fraud. Actually, I am making a note. That will be my column in a week and a half.

Some states brand the titles, and the MFRs know which states do not. There are a few central auctions the MFRs dump these cars at and I suspect that they all end up in states without title branding. Imagine that.

Dr. Strangegun > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 15:46

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ES....was your shadow a V6 auto?

SteveLehto > Chaparral2F 11/01/2014 at 15:46

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I'm not sure how to get permanent approval status. I've seen some of my comments on other threads pending approval and I'm an official writer here now.

I have written a few history books about MICH and this story reminded me of Douglass Houghton, the "little doctor" and state geologist. He drowned in Lake Superior, not far from Eagle River, where the City of Bangor first encountered difficulties. Houghton was in a much smaller boat but they, too, were surprised by a sudden change in the weather.

Thanks for the note.

Tohru > Dr. Strangegun 11/01/2014 at 15:49

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2.5L 4cyl. 5-speed.

Chaparral2F > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 15:50

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I think Steve that if you follow someone, that person does not need "pending approval" Tyler Rogoway did that for me. And, I would love to hear more stories about Lake Superior since I live in the land of 10,000 lakes!

Tohru > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 15:57

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I'm not surprised they'd try to hide lemon cars - most people wouldn't want to buy them.

Even if they mandated stamping it into the vehicle - like the core support or firewall or in the door jam right next to the tire info sticker - you know some of these shady dealers would cover it up. As long as there was one state that didn't brand the title, they'd wash the cars through that state.

Looking forward to the "once lemon, twice represented" article.

SteveLehto > Chaparral2F 11/01/2014 at 15:58

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So I need to follow YOU? Would that make it work? I've seen a bunch of people on here I don't follow (I know because I have never followed anyone on Kinja) me and aren't contributors but they transmit in the clear.

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 16:37

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Just today vs. 1926 doesn't matter who.

SteveLehto > Jimmy Joe Meeker 11/01/2014 at 16:41

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But the 1926 cars did not appear to be damaged or harmed in any way. I still think that if you had a ship run aground with a load of cars today and the cars WERE NOT DAMAGED in any way, they would be offloaded and sold without any form of disclosure (by most of the auto MFRs today).

davedave1111 > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 17:12

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"they recycle them because it's easier to make new ones in Europe than to reuse the ones they already made."

I understood the seats they use for that are actually 'seats' rather than real seats. If so, maybe that makes sense.

Just Cars for Joe Bryant > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 17:13

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The economy sucks, in many cities the crime level sucks, pretty much all of the politicians suck. But it is because of stuff like this, is what makes Michigan a great state to live in.

Well that and the fact we can take credit for this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

Although we don't want to admit it, this too:

davedave1111 > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 17:25

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I'm not quite sure, but since this is appearing on the Oppo subdomain, all the Opponauts should already be followed.

seth > Just Cars for Joe Bryant 11/01/2014 at 17:37

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The U.P. and Keweenaw shares more heritage with Finland and Wisconson than Michigan. You won't be finding too many Detroit coney dogs up here.

Just Cars for Joe Bryant > seth 11/01/2014 at 17:45

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True, but what you will find in the UP is just as good:

southernyooper > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 17:46

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Great story as always, steve. Always nice to read hiatory about the homeland.

SteveLehto > southernyooper 11/01/2014 at 17:51

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Thanks!

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 17:52

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They (the mazdas) weren't damaged in the leaning ship either. At worst they would need to top off fluids because of what came out of the vents and clean off any sticking to the components. They would see just as much salt sitting on dealer's lot in the rust belt in the winter or near the coasts. Cars are tested with salt spray for corrosion, they would be fine. Nothing should have had even a shortened life expectancy. The worst is some oil getting into the cylinders. That drains back leaving the car level for a few hours. Don't start them for two days and there might be a puff of blue smoke at worst. Remove and clean the spark plugs if really exacting about it. Now maybe if it didn't get covered in the media maybe that would have happened and the cars sold, no disclosure, I don't know. Those mazdas, the ones that didn't slide around and get banged up would be just fine. Even the banged up ones could probably be fixed like those that have incidents in rail transport, etc. The only reason to crush them is fear of litigation down the line. There is no engineering reason I know of to do so.

Tohru > davedave1111 11/01/2014 at 18:03

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From everything I had found, they were the same seats as the passenger version.

SteveLehto > Jimmy Joe Meeker 11/01/2014 at 18:04

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Just going off the story posted above, 41 cars "broke free or shifted." I suspect that when a car breaks free at that angle, it "shifts" into another car. Cars don't normally do well when they make contact with one another. The point is that SOME damage was done to these vehicles which the engineers had not planned for. Anyone who bought one of the cars (if they had sold them) would have claimed any malfunction or defect was the result of what happened on the ship. It would have been a PR nightmare. If that ship had simply gone adrift like a Princess Cruise ship and sat out there for a while, they could have sold them no problem. I think it was that word had gotten out that some of the vehicle were damaged.

Also, according to that story, the vehicles were leaking "fluids." That isn't internal - that is fluid that escaped the car and got out. Ask yourself which fluids within the car can leak out and how that happened and what else that fluid would have contacted on its exit from the engine (or wherever it came from). Were plug wires soaked in oil? Were belts soaked in antifreeze? Had gasoline soaked into the upholstery? Remember, that list on the ship had it closer to horizontal than vertical. We can't assume that all of the cars shifted the most harmless way possible. All kinds of bad things may have happened, albeit to a small number of cars.

Dr. Strangegun > McPherson 11/01/2014 at 18:49

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Alternate story alternate headline:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Dr. Strangegun > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 18:51

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Wow... I've had 2 of those, one of which survived treatment that would have disabled or totalled any normal car. Still have one, it sits as a spare...

Tohru > Dr. Strangegun 11/01/2014 at 19:02

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Mine was junk. This is what it did in a year (~12-15k miles):

Front motor mount bolts would come loose (retighten twice a month)
All 4 steering rack bolts fell out
Snapped timing belt
Oil pressure sender failed
Passenger side drive axle failed
Motor incapable of exceeding 4k RPM at any time during ownership

Dr. Strangegun > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 19:08

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...wierd.

davedave1111 > Tohru 11/01/2014 at 19:51

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Oh, that is odd. Is there possibly some reason to do with avoiding the chicken tax that the seats have to be destroyed rather than re-used?

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 20:18

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Throw away the 41 cars and any they may struck that aren't included in that number for the sake of argument, the rest would be undamaged.

Yes, I did ask myself... here's the long form answer ;)

The cooling system is sealed and during normal operation, pressurized . You can turn the car upside down and none will come out. It will stay in the system. The only way coolant comes out is with a recovery bottle that has a vent tube. My old mazda has one but I am not sure that's even been allowed in the last many years for environmental reasons. To leak through there the car really has to be upside down or close to it. The vent tubes are pointed down to the ground so as the car is angled the opening moves upward. It would take some doing to leak a little coolant. So let's say the recovery bottle leaks, the coolant goes... where the engineers put the vent so that it wouldn't hurt anything.

The crankcase is also largely sealed. Since the 1960s the PCV valve (on a valve cover) replaced the breather that let oil vapors escape. Instead the oil vapors are re-routed to the intake, usually at the throttle body. (very top of the engine) 60 degrees is not enough to make the oil go through the valve and into the intake. The very worst is engine oil getting into a cylinder that is at BDC. It's a place oil is supposed to go, just in smaller amounts. It will drain back into the sump. It shouldn't even get past the lip seals on the crank (front and rear main). It's possible sitting like that for three weeks, but it's not catastrophic unless the car is a manual trans and the oil soaks the clutch disc, but it should come out so slowly it just dribbles out into the bell housing and from there it goes out the bell housing vent causing no harm like with an AT. Cars can be inspected and friction discs replaced as required anyway.

The brake hydraulic system is also sealed. Modern master cylinders have a good enough cap on them at 60 degrees leakage out of the top of the master cylinder, the place where it can come out, would be minimal. Worst damage? Cosmetic under the hood near the master cylinder just like what will happen to most cars when someone tops it off and spills. Wipe it up, top it off, it will be fine. If the paint got damaged, touch it up, take some money off for it.

The unsealed systems are the transmission and rear differential (if RWD). There is a small vent at the top of their cases that keeps pressure at atmospheric pressure while the car is in operation. (gears, heat, the case will pressurize if there is no vent and that tends to blow seals) This just requires a top off. No harm done. makes a bit of a mess, but there are countless cars that have run lots and lots of miles leaking these fluids and being topped off.

I don't see any real damage happening. I see a mess to clean up, and inspecting the 5% that are MTs if they were angled with the clutch on the low side from the engine. That inspection could be done with a bore scope through the bell housing vent.

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't think so.

SteveLehto > Jimmy Joe Meeker 11/01/2014 at 20:40

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Cars hit one another (most likely) and enough "fluids" leaked out for them to mention it. You assume the cars were all built perfectly AND nothing odd happened when they were tipped way over and left in that position for a few weeks. And, you assume Mazda is telling 100% the truth here (since corporation PR departments would NEVER lie to us).

Meanwhile, we know the car companies have no problem selling repurchased lemons all day long, every day. Maybe I'm missing something here but you're not going to convince me that car companies will wastefully destroy perfectly good cars all day long while selling defective cars in a different context all day long.

And, as I mentioned, if ANY cars were damaged (which you have now conceded) Mazda had to do something with ALL the cars since no one would trust/believe them on which ones were which.

Be that as it may, my original statement was that Chrysler would not destroy 200 undamaged cars simply because the vehicle transporting them broke down. You may feel otherwise but that's fine. Someone asked me my opinion and that's my opinion. You are free to disagree. This is the internet after all.

Tohru > davedave1111 11/01/2014 at 21:16

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Nothing that I can find. It's just easier for them to recycle them than ship them back.

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalls > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 22:25

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200 Chrysler 200s

SteveLehto > baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalls 11/01/2014 at 22:26

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Imagine if it had happened near the actual city of Bangor as well.

TurboLag23 > Just Cars for Joe Bryant 11/01/2014 at 22:53

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You should see California's list of achievements. We're richer than some countries. More in debt than them, too!!

On a side note, it rained last night... DROUGHT'S OVER!!!!!

SLOCUSFOCUS > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 22:53

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I believe it's pronounced "City of Bangah"

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 22:54

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Conceded? I made a point of cars being banged up awhile back. My premise is the event made the cars a liability, the great bulk of the cars themselves should have been perfectly fine to use. It's not a technical problem. One bad apple spoils the bunch falls under that category.

Buying back lemons is totally different ballgame from unsold and possibly damaged product in any large corporation. It's a vastly different decision tree. The call is made with totally different factors involved and a different mindset. But this is different yet, it happened in shipping. The insurance for the shipper comes into play too. Ultimately it may have been their call to scrap with a payout. But all parties had to come to an agreement.

Those cars lashed to the deck in a storm in 1926 probably suffered far more than modern cars held below deck and dry. Water is a much bigger destroyer of cars than being shipped at an angle. In 1926 cars had all sorts of wood and leather parts, poorly coated steel if at all, lots of mechanical bits that weren't sealed and protected. Being hit with waves in a storm isn't exactly good for them.

Chevy shipped Vegas like this:

Of course the Vega was meant to be shipped like that, but it's not like severe angles are damaging if the engine isn't running. Look at the hills in much of the country where cars drive up and down them every day.

As to honesty it looks like a fair number of cars would have seen flooding damage, unless all the cars were all on the 'high' side of the ship.

All I can say at the end is that a lot of those cars should have been perfectly fine.

ranwhenparked > SteveLehto 11/01/2014 at 23:22

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Even if they were there, there would be very little left today. Things might not rust in fresh water as badly as salt water, but you're still talking about very thin sheet steel and lots of wood and fabric which would be pretty much gone by now.

Dunnik > SteveLehto 11/02/2014 at 00:23

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Customer - "Has the car been involved in an accident?"

Dealer - "Uh...."

Dunnik > Jimmy Joe Meeker 11/02/2014 at 00:26

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I'm sure it has really nothing to do with it, but I couldn't hep but thinking, "Well, no wonder Vegas were crap!"

Jimmy Joe Meeker > Dunnik 11/02/2014 at 00:48

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Nahh. Most of its problems were due to 1970s GM quality and design issues. 2 million vegas made and pretty much none left.

wikipedia has a decent entry on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet…

Just Cars for Joe Bryant > TurboLag23 11/02/2014 at 02:06

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Yep, but our tax rate is nowhere near as insane as California is. Problem is the celebs. from Hollyweird are starting to figure that out and are moving here.

Sixpackdan > Just Cars for Joe Bryant 11/02/2014 at 02:38

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OMG someone else that appreciates pasties!!!

Buick Mackane > SteveLehto 11/02/2014 at 02:43

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I used to live in Michigan and have also been to Copper Harbor and the Keweenaw Peninsula up in Northern Michigan. Yes, it is true, the snow drifts can reach 10-15 ft high during the winter months.

Buick Mackane > Just Cars for Joe Bryant 11/02/2014 at 02:48

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Who is the young lady below the Coney Dog and above the Madonna photos?

Buick Mackane > Just Cars for Joe Bryant 11/02/2014 at 03:13

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Also from Michigan, quite a few rock stars.

SteveLehto > SLOCUSFOCUS 11/02/2014 at 04:27

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"Bangor? I never even met 'er!"

SteveLehto > Jimmy Joe Meeker 11/02/2014 at 04:47

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You say the Mazdas were unharmed and in perfect condition but destroyed for liability reasons. What liability? The companies buy back thousands of known lemons each year with known safety problems and resell them. You think that's NOT a liability issue? And no, lawyers don't use "decision trees."

I don't know if you're just arguing because you like srguing (such as citing the Vega which you know was DESIGNED to be shipped like that - thus is a red herring) or if you work for a car company.

And lemons aren't even just "possibly damaged," they're WORSE. They're admittedly defective, often with known and proven safety defects. Do you know what a lemon is? If they'd sell lemons (which they do all day long) they'd sell undamaged vehicles from a grounded ship (the Chryslers).

And contrary to your repeated statements - the 200 Chryslers were NOT damaged. NOT damaged. They appear to have been INSIDE the ship the whole time. Your argument about them being damaged is not based on fact. If we are just going to make up our own facts, then it's not really a proper discussion, is it? ("Every single Mazda in that ship was totaled." See? Now I win the argument!)

And, of course, I addressed the insurance above. An insurer could have taken possession of the undamaged cars (if they actually paid the claim) and resold them. Insurance companies do that all the time. Or do you think an insurance company would be concerned about liability stemming from selling cars at auction? (The answer is No. Insurance companies auction off all kinds of unsafe junk every day in the US. And No, they're not bothered by it in the least.)

Kerry > SteveLehto 11/02/2014 at 07:38

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Steve, I think the thing that is tripping everybody up is that marine insurance works slightly differently than over the road freight insurance, mfgs insurance, and standard automobile insurance. I agree that Automakers resell cars all the time that have been damaged while on the over the road car carrier transport, that have been bought back as lemons, and that have been damaged while at the dealership. I think the difference is the marine insurance considers the whole load rather than the cost of each individual unit - it's never can car A be saved and car B be scrapped, it's can the whole load be saved or scrapped. I think what make the Mazda situation unique is that the load was probably at the tipping point where insurance would have paid out either way for lost cargo, but Masada looked at the cost of salvage plus the cost of continuing liability vs any money earned by selling the cars and found scrapping the leas costly of the two options.

I will point out, just because a newspaper reports the cars as being undamaged they probably are not. Power steering and ATF care caustic to paint and will ruin the finishes if left to sit for longer than a couple of hours. Even oil stains pretty hard, never mind the leaks covering the engines, the cost to repaint the entire load would probably be close to $100k alone.

SLOCUSFOCUS > SteveLehto 11/02/2014 at 09:20

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"Bangah!? You brought ah!"

SteveLehto > Kerry 11/02/2014 at 12:41

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Which all makes sense. Keep in mind that the car company is under no obligation to tell the truth about an incident like this either.

My point is (and has been) that the Chrysler cars - which were undamaged - would not have been "scrapped" today just because their carrier ran aground. It is an absurd suggestion. And an insurance company would not have paid a claim on 200 undamaged cars.

A previous commenter made the statement that the Mazdas were scrapped for "liability" reasons (based on the theory that a jury would just throw money at a third or fourth owner down the line who had problems - which is an absurd argument as well) and I was merely pointing out that if you want to see "liability" - there is much more apparent liability with the recycled lemons. And they seem to have NO problem with that.

Just Cars for Joe Bryant > Buick Mackane 11/02/2014 at 15:57

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Kate Upton, she is from St. Joseph, Michigan.

Just Cars for Joe Bryant > Buick Mackane 11/02/2014 at 16:02

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Here are a few more (but not all) celebrities that either were born in, lived in, or at least in a couple of cases are buried in Michigan:

Outdoor Michigan - Famous People from Michigan

Jimmy Joe Meeker > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 00:40

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My reply just got eaten by a keystroke error. I don't feel like rewriting it. So this will be a bit terse. The cars being chiseled from ice is in your article. I stated nothing more than that and the damage/wear/tear that implies. Then the WSJ article on the Mazdas. That's where I pulled facts from, I didn't make anything up.

The Vega is mentioned because of what little was required to make that work and then the major change was to prevent the oil from getting into the #1 cylinder, again as per I described. It's a cited reference to support what I stated technically. (see the wikipedia entry)

In the WSJ article it describes how the insurance companies wanted the cars scrapped so mazda could not re-use anything.

The rest has to do with perception. I do not work in the automotive industry, but